Since the 19th Century is Shock in medical Terms used for blood loss induced Blood pressure loss. Nothing else!
Betreff: Re: pathogene Bullets Datum: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:40:49 -0600 Von: Rick Lowe <email@example.com> Firma: Pegasus Ventures Inc. An:
Wrong! In English, Shock names serious and potentially lethal medical Condition, but can also describe Impact, emotional Reaction, etc. .
The medical Shock action is far more complex than you describe above. It is quite possible to die of Shock without having lost even one Blood drop - it is quite possible to have hypovolemic Shock, cardiogenic Shock, anaphylactic Shock, septic Shock, and neurogenic Shock. All can through precisely the same mechanism kill. Shock can even be brought on by lost Fluid due to Burns, vomiting, or Diarrhea.
Furthermore, "Shock" is a gradual Condition, that can onset Minutes or Hours. An animal killed by a broadhead Arrow or Bullet lives not long enough to go into Shock. It dies due to "inadequate Tissues perfusion", and this in a very strict sense is a of Shock description, but that is not the Shock mechanism, as medical People deal with. Too little oxygen and too much acid in the cells basically results in Shock damage. Such Schock damage starts following Mechanism:
Cells stops to function
Processing cell death poisoning effectivly kills the entire Body, reaches a certain irreversable Point. If you, for example, had a hemmorhaging Patient in a Hospital on Lifesupport with unlimited supplied Blood, that endless red Stream would not differ the final End. Once the processing Shock reached a certain Grade, the Body simply slowly shuts down, dies.
The Lung contains too much Air, to be incompressible. As such, no highpressured hydraulic Pressurewave may progress in the Lungs. Examine nonfragmenting Bullet shot Lungs or another Bow shot Animal, to find the Lungtrauma significantly different. Non fragmenting Bullets splinter no secondary Projectiles, to add to the damage, off.
A slippery Tissue double walled "Bag", called Pleura, surrounds each Lung. One layer of this Sac lines the Chest cavity inside, the other Layer covers the Lung. By a thin Fluidfilm seal the Pleural layers tightly against each other. So ... the hole unperforatet Chestwall expands the Lung with the pulling Wall, by the greater Airpressure inside the Lungs, than th Chamber.
This Pleurasac basically works to behave like a divisive, laterally the thorax dividing Tissuelayer. But no, you won't see some, resembling the muscular Diaphragm, Thing.
They fit not around the Mediastinum. Their shape that actually forms this Space.
If a bullet has no Potential to expand on a Quart shot - and then to push all the Way through a 1500 lb Moose or Grizzlybear - sufficiently damaging while penetrating - and leave a nice big Hole, then it penetrates insufficient. Less ample penetration, you wound in big Game not those big Exitholes.
As great Elmer Keith once observed, "Big holes let a lot cold Air in ..."
Talking Bullets ultimately means Wounds count. Lutz, when you talk about big Moose and Bears, probably no Rifle, you would want to fire from your Shoulder to yiel those "ultimate wounds", that kill your small Deer so quickly, is yet made. The Tissue and the Bone resistance, sheer Organ size, and everything else change from Roe to Moose.
So big Hole yielding total Penetration differs big!
A well constructed Bullet, sufficient sectional dense, to total penetrating on quartering Shots, that will both mushroom and hold together suits anything, to walks in these Woods. If such Bullet works on a moose, it will most certainly work on a scrawny Whitetail. For big Game, the one thing I DON'T want, are fragmenting Bullets, i want Sturdies. Not to fragment, is the Barnes X-Bullets and similar Bullets Beauty (like Hirtenberger ABC) for Biggame. Nonfragmenting Bullets retain their weight; means both superior penetration, and the Ability to use a lighter Bullet, because Sturdies need no extra Weight to outweigh shed Splinters.
Lutz Möller asked The Elitist, a Veterinary and Hunter:
I try to shoot Game to its least possible Pain, that is: sudden death. Hunters say, the goal is, the animal shall not even to hear to be shot. With 0,4 second Bulletflight a rather short Timeframe.
Usually the prey it shot through the lungs. The Thorax opens, the Lungs cannot breath anymore, so missing Oxygen causes the Animal to subsequently die. The Chamber is a large and proven Target to shot at to kill. Also not so much meat is destroyed. But it is not uncommon, the so shot Deer runs another 100m or Boar 200 m. I call this not sudden Death.
My experience with very fast soft Bullets, those that completely disintegrate into sandgrain large particles in the body differs though. Many Animals died quiet sudden. After being hit so, they fewl zero to five Meters. Now comes my Question? How can one suddenly die? Is there something like a Nerveshock? Can one die just of Pain or Fear?
The Elitist answered:
In the Shootcontext Death occurs by Means. The first is Bloodloss with resulting Brain oxygenation loss. As you note, this works usually not instantaneous. It really isn't like to drown though.To drown normally involves no gradual Consciousnessloss, as Bleeddeath does. It's probably pretty close to being "painless" as a Way to die.
The second Deathmechanism is to disrupt the Nervous system controls over normal Body functions. Bleeddeath does this, too, but slowly; to do it instantly requires to physically disrup the Nervous system. A Bullet in the brain does this by causing massive Nervous system tissue destruction. The Nervous system is a like a sWiresset, that controls everything from Heart rate to Posture normally constant. Cut the "Wires", then Control ends; the Animal is dead.
The Problem with light fast Bullets is, they disintegrate. That may not matter much on small and lightly-built Animals such as Roedeer. Even a very lightweight highspeed bullet , say, out of a .223 rifle, will penetrate deeply enough to destroy important Structures in a Roedeer. In the Chest, it will damage the the Heart and Lung blood vessels; in the Head it destroys Brain tissue. In larger Animals it may well disintegrate less penetrating deep enough to reach vital Structures, resulting in a shallow but non-fatal Surface wound. For heavy animals such as Wisent or Buffalo, or Moose ("Elch" in Germany) a much tougher bullet must be used, as Momentum and Weight retention are needed to penetrate deep and reach important Things.
In Huntcontext "Shock" is misunderstood. It's usually taken to mean a sort of hydraulic Effect to displace Tissues. In fact this occurs, but its importance as a Kill mechanism is minor to insignificant. The Blood vessels and Nervedestruction cause Death. The hydraulic Effect is no factor, except in hit in the Central nervous system, in which in the Head the thick Skullwalls amplify it.
Animals die not from Pain or Fright, they die from Bloodloss. "Shock" in a medical sense, such as an Auto accident victim experiences, is certainly present, but it wouldn't bring rapid Death about. That can only be done by mechanical damage to tissues.
I hope this helps. I refer you to Dr. Martin Facklers work, much is on the Internet, for a thorough explanation of Wound ballistics and that Bullets really do.
Someone else wrote to the Elitist: >The key is to have a good bullet like with enough velocity for the “shock wave” to really drive the deer's blood pressure to the skies. Instant stroke and they drop.
The Elitist answered: No, sorry, you are dead wrong here. There is no such thing as "hydrostatic shock" and the deer doesn't die because it's blood pressure goes up, it dies because its blood pressure goes DOWN, all the way to zero. I speak with the authority of 22 years' experience as an animal anatomist, physiologist, and pathologist, 30 years' plus experience as a hunter, and having seen more than my share of gunshot wounds in humans and animals.
You are under a total misapprehension as to the killing mechanism of the bullet -- regardless of type or make. I am not willing to start this thread going on rec.hunting again, but I assure you that there is not, and cannot be, any such effect as you describe as an "instant stroke" from a gunshot wound. Stroke is a much, much different phenomenon and it does not, period, arise from an increase in blood pressure at all. Nor could any such pressure be set up in the circulatory system of any mammal by any bullet under any circumstances.
Lutz Möller asked Lauren, a pathologist, the same question ... How can one suddenly die? Is there something like a Nerve shock? Can one just from Pain or Fear die?
Lauren answered ...
Good Questions. In Truth, Death is not always clearly defined. The Brain can be mostly dead, but sometimes the Heart beats on. During Heart and Lung surgery the Same is true . The heart can be stopped and replaced, but the Brain still functions. Some People choose to just lie down and die. More common in some primitive cultures.
Pain in and of itself is not usually fatal, but can cause Shock and shut down some bodily Functions, leaving the Person unconscious. I have heard the Myth, People falling from high places die of Fright before they hit the ground. Survivors tell otherwise.
Fear may cause to faint, but like holding your Breath, then the Autonomic systems take over. To my best Knowledge no current Fright or Pain including legal Deathcause exists. Horror movies just count not.
Current thinking generally focuses on the Brain. If the brain has no measurable Neuron function, the Person is legally dead. To donate Organs the Bodyrest can temporarily be maintained. Heart- and or Lungdamage deprives the Brain of Oxygen, thereby causing Death.
Hunters focus on the Chest, because it is usually an easier Target then the Brain.That is also true for Police and Military. They shoot for Mass dead center. To miss a Head shoot is easier. A wounded Animal or Person is also sometimes downslowed, easing a second Shot.
Of all the methods to take Life, seems severe and violent Trauma often the quickest. A sledgehammer hit Fly usually knows not, what it hit. Pieces smaller than a cubic centimeter leaving Eyplosions are also effective, but tend not to leave much meat.
> Lauren, once on the Road with my Car i hit a Haret. Not wanting to leave the Animal halfdead on the Road, I braked, took my Knife, which in the Car for just this Purpose resides, went to the accidental hit Hare. The Hare looked still like being whole, but some Fur rubbed of. It breathed not. When I lay my Hand on it, I was surprised to feel the Heart beat rather fast! I stabbed it through the Lungs, to be sure to kill it, took it home and ate it the other day.
I suspect the Hare should have been dead, but the Heart still pounded on. Can the Heart pound by itself, autonomic?
The point with Bullets is, fast disintegrating Bullets, or slower less disintegrating Bullets result, when hitting an Animal at nearly the same Place, that is onto the Lungchamber, completely different. The Wounds may look similar, but the Results differ from the Bulletspeed. High speed bullets tend to provoke sudden Death, whereas slower Bullets let the poor Victim die much slower (minute). So to the knowledgeable folks on this thread I repeat my question: Is there something like a nerve shock?
Lauren answered ...
If a Bullet deforms, its Flesh crushing force spreads over a larger Area, damaging more.
If a High speed bullet deforms upon Entry, it will damage more, especially if it hits bone. Only superficially the Wounds might look similar. Closer Autopsy look will internally reveal much more and widespread Damage. Still no evidence of "Nerve shock" is found.
Trauma is in general a violent, by some Mass or Object(s), moving at some Speed caused, Body insult. To be satisfied Conditions to call Trauma severe and violent are arbitrary. A Paper cut may be sever to a Blond. But severe will leave someone dead or permanently disabled. Violent refers, as opposed to Illness or Poison, to Trauma.
When the Systems is enough damaged, that it cannot function, severe and violent Trauma kills sudden (in Seconds). Example: If you cut someone's Head off, a short Time the Brain may still function. If you blow the Head up, the hydraulic Shockwave is faster than a Nerve impulse speed traveling to the Brain. Then, before you know, you are dead. The exact Force is not always calculable. In Field hospitals and at Autopsy we often wondered why someone died at a particular Moment and not another.
One friend, being 50 times hit with a .50” caliber Machine gun, survived. Many others died from much less Trauma.
Another Vietnam aera grenade on a young Puerto Rican Autopsy showed superficially only few small entry Wounds. One through the Heart, three through the Lungs, and two through the Brain. The holes were the size of 4,5 mm BB shot. Death was, probably because of the Head wounds, instantaneous. At another Case of a Large caliber bullet, entering the Head, circumscribing the Skull inside, then exiting the Entry wound went different: The patient completely recovered and never lost Conciouseness.
The Bulletcalibers are only so long important to damage, as the Bullets leeps together. Most Metal jacket bullets blast when hitting from 820 m/s onwards off to Splinters.
The old American (not the German) 830 m/s 7,62*51
Nato = .308 Win full metal jacket usually kept together. The new 5,56*43
Nato = .223 Rem. leaves the gun at 970 m/s speed. The faster bullet will
above 820 m/s most often fragment in the body.
Effective Crush surface
What happens, when a fast Bullet hits Flesh?
In Bulletfront brakes the tissue; from behind pushes fast moving heavy impacted Mass; Pressure builds inside the Bullet up; no Counterpressure to the Side exists; the Bullet blasts, kicking Daughter splinters to the side off.
Let´s inaugurate a new Variable, the "Effective Surface". In Flight ans at first upon Hit the caliberdiameter is the Effective Surface. Later, after Blast, it is the Sum of all Daughter splinters, yielding a much larger Effective Surface, up to a 10 times or more the original Surface. the Slpinters act inside like Shotshell pellets.
This leaden Family's Wound funnel of looks different to those of Nondisitegrating bullet wound funnels. Think of the storming Lead family, to yield larger Crushsurface, to crush an accelerated growing exponential Wound funnel, causing violent, severe permanent Crushdamage, not just a Stress cavity, that in less than a second collapses back to original Size
My observation is, at equal energies, such fast leadblasting Bullets kill quicker, than bigger slower ones. Small, soft, fast blasters deplete rather little energy (1.000 J) for good results, whereas big and sturdy .30-6 4.000 Joule Bullets just kill not as instantaneous. Big slow unfragmenting Bullets leave small Bodies less much Damage. In Air Bullets harm not!
As Blastbullets effective Woundsurface, compared to a throughshooting Sturdy bullet wound surface, damages the Lungs multiple, say ten times, Blood drains quickly, yielding hydrvasvular Shock > Unconsciousness > Grunding > Death! Unfortunately, this Mechanisms is limited to small Game, as Blasters never reach deep. So for the Moose and Grizlybear we Hunters still must choke Big game with open Thorax, yielding Asphixition. A suffocating Bear lives and acts conscious, maybe even angry and highly determined to harm his Agressor, You!, much longer than a blasttkilled Roedeer. So watch out for dangereous Game! A Neckshot may be better. When accurately applied, the Prey fades instantly. Bang! = Drop! (some uncounscious Leg movements remain).
As You say, there is nothing like a nerve shock
known. The .243 Win inside wounds in Reh (a 20 kg roe deer, common in Germany)
look quite similar to those of the much bigger .30-06 wounds. But with
the fast .243 win, my prey lies and with a .30-06 it runs. So to save my
prey from unnecessary pain, I shoot now fast bullets.
Larger than half Body width Stress cavity causes extra Wounds
Dr. Martin Fackler on Woundballistics focuses on military and criminal Human wounds. The Wound principles are regardless of the shot species same. Different Bullets wound differently. Duncan McPherson indicated from Facklers work, a half Body thickness surpassing temporary Stresscavity causes extra Wound effects.
This is true insofar as it goes. But few if any Handgun rounds are capable to mak much temporary Stress cavity. In any animal much larger than a Hare, say, the temporary Stess cavity effect would be insignificant.
Rifles are another matter. The average rifle--say, something in the .30-30 class (I'm not sure what the European designation is, but I know you use it in drillings)--is so much more powerful than any Handgun that the temporary Stress cavity in small animals gets to half the Creaturesize. A Roe is a small animal, really. A big one is perhaps 25 kg. Compare this to Red deer or the North American Whitetail, and the .30-30 is under the right circumstances likely to damage quite a bit, if you hit a Roe with it; on the larger red deer will not.
Now, I want to dispose of one thing I believe you have in mind. You may be thinking of hitting an animal in the chest and having the cavity (or "Shock wave," if you prefer) cause significant damage. Not so. Mainly Air fills the Chest cavity in Mammals, not Fluid. A bullet through the Chest displaces Tissues **designed** to expand, i.e., the Lungs.
The messy red Soup, you find after the Kill in the Chest wasn't, when you fired the Bullet, already there. That Soup is Blood from capillary Lung beds and the Body rest, pumped into the Cest space AFTER its Integrity was destroyed. The Lungs are collapsed and sometimes shredded, but they are not gone. The blood is no factor to transmit "Shock" at all.
> Once, when on short Distance with a light fast blasting 4,5 g bullet out of my .243 win I shot a small Roe deer on the Liver, giving some 2.700 Joule, that five Ribs on each side just *broke off* the Backbone. I interprete the effect, being caused by a Stretch cavity reaching beyond the Ribs Elongation elasticity, plainly braking them. The resulting effect was drastic: Prey instantaneously grounded!
Oh, yes, I can well believe this. The .243
is in my Opinion for Roe quite overpowered. If the Ribs separated from
the Spine, very likely you **did** have a "Shock wave" or hydraulic Expansion
that did it. The bullet
undoubtedly displaced the Musculature along the Spine, broke the Ribs off. I've seen this happen in Whitetails.
> I had alike Results from my 5,6 x 50 Magnum (like a bigger .223 Rem) on Roe deer with Full metal jacket bullets with a Leberkotenschuß liver knotshot (explained below) without broken ribbs.
At first, a Full metal jacket bullet, all other Things being equal, will set up, similar to a Softnose bullet of the same shape, a temporary Stretch cavity at least. BUT, as the Softnose bullet expands, or as any bullet tumbles, the temporary Stretch cavity increases. Assuming the FMJ bullet tumbles not in passing through the Animal, its Wound cavity will be smaller.
In the case of the .243 Win, the light, fast Bullet either expanded (if a softpoint) or as it passed through tumbled. The faster a Bullet moves and the less stable it is, the likelier it is to tumble on contact. The 5.6 mm bullet with a FMJ is pretty solidly constructed. It's quite likely to begin tumbling, but not to have tumbled enough to make up for its Expand inability. Its Cavity would be smaller. It may well have slipped through between two Ribs.
Another Possiblity: The .243 Bullet may have hit another Bone on the way in, and been deflected along the Ribs, breaking them that way. I shot this Year a Deer in which this happened. I found on the Offside three broken Ribs, snapped right near the Spine off. But the Bullet clearly had not exited. I believe it was diverted by striking some other Bone, glanced along the Ribs, and then was deflected back into the Viscera.
> Only one Question remains to me. Could, beside destroying central nervous tissue close to the Old brain (sorry, I miss the Terminus technicus, I mean the Alligator brain, if You know what I mean), Neural wound effects be?
Yes, you mean the "Limbic system" .
If the temporary Stretch cavity is large enough
and close enough to the Spine, yes, it's possible. But that is simply
another special Disruption case, a functional Spinal cord separation.
The same Thing happens when
someone falls and lands on his Back--there may be no actual physical Spinal cord separation, but the Cord in its Spine channel is banged around, to a Non functionality grade damaged . If you hit him hard and high up enough You can kill someone. A rifle bullet with a "Near miss" just below the Spine through the Muscles could certainly do it to a deer .
> In plain Words I ask: "Can a Shot in such a way stimulate Nerves in game, that the Game from that stimulation (but not from bleeding, desoxigenation, or destroeyd CNS) dies?"
Not in the sense to "Overload" the System. The Nervous system works not that Way. There is no Way to introduce Hydraulic shock other than a local basis in it; nor any Way in which physical Impact can put such massive Sensation amounts in, as to kill the Animal. The Impact-, Pain-, Etc. receptors are too widely distributed.
In general I shoot following shots ...
"Blattschuß" rectangular shoot into the Shoulder blade is a good Stopper with any amunition, as long as it´s not too small, because the Bones enhance Fragmentation, so the Lungs shall be destroyed and hopefully the Heart as well. The negative is less Meat from the Forelegs. Roe shot that Way with a .30-06 destroyes the hit Shoulder completely, for Meat useless.
rectangular shoot into the Lung- and Heart chamber, Chest, behind the Forleg´s Shoulderblade. Such shot yields least destroyed Meat, but requires an easy fragmenting and, if the animal, like Roe is small, fast Bullet, the faster the better.
I have shot so many times on Whitetails (the "heart-lung" shot we call it). Because it allows the Meat to completely bleed out, I like it. I am not sure a fragmenting Bullet is such a good Idea, though I like one that expands and punches through both Sides. Roe deer are so lightly made, I'd think a .22-.25 caliber bullet at moderate Velocity with a Soft jacket perfor perfect. The .25-20 (you also have this Round, but I haven't a Clue what you call it) would pretty much be the Thing sort I mean.
> For Roe I use on chambershots 5,6*50 Magnum with 3,2 g RWS FMJ or Sierra 55 gr Game King with great Success. Also in .243 Winchester a 4,5 g Hornady V-Max Varmint hollow pointplastic tip boat tail does great shots at 200 m om roe deer.
Elitist; I bet it does!
I have a lot Sako .243 Win 5,8 g Semi jacketed spitz flat base bullets, that do a good Shoulder blade shot, but for immediate stops start to fade efficiency on the chamber (chest?).
Again, the heavier Jacket and limited expansion means it tumbles not. The temporary Stretch cavity -- no Factor in Chest hits -- is compared to the lighter and faster Bullets small.
> Another big Box .243 Norma 6,5 g Round nose semi jacketed will leave a perfectly hit Roe deer running, nearly less Blood trail, another 100 m before it lays down.
An even heavier bullet, with less deformation and less likelihood of tumbling. Use these heavy bullets on Red deer and you will with the same hits see similar performance to the light ones on Roe.
>My .30-06 Sprg. rifle is usually too big for my game, but Germany requires 6,5 mm on Stag and Sow and others, so I need a big Gun.
God, yes. A .30-06 would make mincemeat a Roe deer if you used a light bullet and hit a bone! It's too much gun for a Whitetail, too, but I use it.
>Krellschuß: I frontally shot an attacking Sow. The Bullet just hit the Spine finns and the Shoulderblade in 0° (frontally, not sideways). Such Shot with a normal Bullet would not kill, as no vital Organs were destroyed. The knocked Spine finns, created in the banged Spine nerve cord a "Nerve shock", grounded the Sow immediatly, not withstanding to move and flee some time later. In this Case the soft Bullet caused on the Boar top a Wound, as big as Saucer, ample Evidence to the fast Fragmentation and the extreme Burst bullet pressure wound effect.
I killed a Deer with a Round lead ball from my .50-caliber Muzzle loader with exactly this shot. He dropped like a Stone. About 15 cm of the spine was shattered between his Shoulders. But there was no exit wound at all!
>The .30-06 shot rectangular on a Roedeerchamber with Sierra 150 grs GameKing on any alike 9,7g bullet like Sellier & Bellot or Winchester Silver will not ground my Roe deer target! The Game will have a big, like 3 cm, Exit wound. You may find even Lung pieces and Blood like spilled from a Can, but, repeat *BUT*, the Deer will run another 100 m, before it grounds.
That's interesting, and a little surprising. On the other hand, if Roe are like whitetails, they have in their Muscles considerable Reserve oxygen capacity, can with a mortal Wound run fair Flee distances. I have had them go 50-75 meters with completely destroyed Heart.
>Any Animal with a Lung shot will at least live another 15 Seconds.
Yes. You have to hit the Heart to make it really fast; or the large Vessels (Aorta, Pulmonary artery) to make the Hemorrhage effect great enough to kill quick.
>So when You hunt in the Afternoon, my Search will after Dusk be in the Dark. At Night we hunt Sows, so no one can see any Trail, just Dogs smell them. For the aftersearch I must then with me have a trained Huntdog. But how many Hunters hunt less Dog? I frequently do!
I wish I could use a Dog. I never lost a Deer so far, but I know people, who hunt with Bows and Arrows, and they do lose them. However, in this State part to use a Dog to hunt Deer in any Capacity is against the Law. The P ossibility -- the very likely Possibility -- to have to track a wounded Deer for 200-300 Meters makes me refuse to bow hunt in the Afternoon. I want daylight to track, if I have to. We are not allowed to hunt at Night.
>So I prefer light, soft, fast and easily bursting Bullets, to ground my prey on the Spot. Slower harder bullets, just don´t do that.
Again, it depends on the Prey. For Roe, the light fast Bullets work perfectly. But for larger Animals you need sturdier constructed deeper penetrating Bullets.
>I agree, a often cited hydraulic Pressurewave may not damage much at all (work of Sellier & Kneubuehl shows this), because Flesh is mostly incompressible, so big Forces move little. Flesh withstands these Pressureforces, and much larger Movements elastically, less Rupture, hence without Damage.
I saw Horses with large Blood vessels surgically permanently 3-10 cm displaced. Such affects them not at all.
Well the Heart will, not caring where the Pipe is, as long as leaks not, pump on and on.
> Dear Elitist, surely the Wound- and Kill principles are for Military- and Hunt ammunition alike. But a few typical variations between Criminal-, Military- and Hunt ammunition should though be considered.
Criminal bullet case
Weapons under criminal Investigation are usually
Handguns, such as Pistols and Revolvers, delivering much slower Bullet
velocities on Target as the Military- and Hunt bullets. Revolvers bullets
are mostly designed to expand. Autoload pistol bullets may not be so. At
given Speeds such Bullets in the soft Targetnever fragment. I talk not
about major Bone hits here. Calibers are usually 9 or 11 mm. The larger
.45 ACP often travels in Air subsonic (< 330 m/s). 9 mm Bullets fly
a bit faster through the Air, often slightly above 400 m/s.
Military bullet case
Military ammunition is usually Full metal
jacketed in medium (7,62 mm) or small Caliber (5,6 mm). The medium Calibrebullets
travel 700 - 800 m/s Speed , whereas the smaller ones at Muzzle speed above
900 m/s. Depending on the Jacket construction even the medium Bullets (German
7,62 x 51 Nato) fragment at moderate Speeds, whereas small Caliberbullets
only over 800 m/s hitting soft tissue fragment. Military ammunition mushrooms
not, therefore tumbles in the target (no Shoulder to stabilize.)
Hunt bullet case
Except for very hard Big game cartrigde bullets,
or small very Pelt game hunter bullets, designed not to expand or fragment,
we have a large variety, waranting further Subsections.
Soft bursting (varmint) Hunt bullet case
usually in calibers betwee 4,5 and 6,5 mm
those light soft bullets are driven at extreme speeds around or above 1.000
m/s, often use a hollow point and mostly disintegrate upon hit on soft
tissues and even when hitting the chest (lung).
Semi jacketed deforming Hunt bullet case
exist in most, except the very biggest hippopotamus-
elephant- and rhino-loads, of different construction and jacket. The soft
lead tip or hollow point lets the bullet front expand in the first 2 or
3 cm in the target. After initial deformation the bullet travel shoulderstabilized
further through the soft tissue, thereby keeping the axis. This shoulderstabilization
constitutes a major difference to the target mechanichs of the military
Solid Hunt Bullet case
of various materials, usually Cu-Zn alloys,
with or without lead hollow point tip (Hirtenberger ABC) or Barnes or MEN
SFS, will expand in typical way upon impact and then usually travel through
the body, leaving opposite the entrance hole.
Wideband compound hunt Bullet case
of target mechanism 3.1. + 3.2., showing a soft forend and a hard back, like RWS DK, HM, Brenneke TIG or TUG, Nosler Partition or Swift A-Frame. Depending on the fact, wether the bullet will mushroom (mostly all) or not (H-Mantel), the bullet will to a lesser part disintgrat its forend, then mushroom, and its hard back shall travel shoulderstabilized through the body, leaving an extrance.
V is Bullet speed. Vt is the minimum
penetration threshhold velocity. Under Vt can the Bullet not
enter the target. Vc ist the Cavity speed, upon which the bullet
will in soft Tissue yield a Cavity.
1st Speedcase V < Vt when V < V threshold the bullet stays outside. That defines Vt.
2nd Speedcase Vt < V < Vc The Resistance coefficient in soft Tissue is relatively high, but, because of the low velocity, absolutely low. No stretch Cavity ist blown out.
Few if any handgun rounds are capable to make a temporary Stretch cavity, and in any animal much larger than a hare, say, the effect of the temporary cavity would be insignificant.
Yes, as described in 2nd Speed case
V < Vc
We differ Target resitance:
1st Resistance case: Very soft and compressible = chest, lung hit.
A bullet through the Chest displaces Tissues **designed** to expand, i.e., Lungs. The messy red Soup you find in it after the Kill wasn't there when the Shot was fired. It is Blood from the Capillary beds in the Lungs and the Body rest pumped into the space AFTER its Integrity was destroyed. The lungs are collapsed and sometimes shredded, but they are not gone.
Yes, the typical chestshot. Soft bursting (varmint) Hunt bullets 3.1 would be an appropriate choice to target the Lung.
> And the blood is not a factor in transmitting "shock" at all.
Well, you dwell on Your favourite subject. I agree with You in this argument and am no opponent here.
2nd Resitance case: soft incompressible
tissue, flesh (soft solid) or water or gelatine. Or even lead.
> >once, when on short distance with a light fast blasting 4,5 g bullet out of my .243 win I shot a small roe deer, giving some 2.700 Joule, that five ribs on each side just *broke off* the backbone. I interprete the effect, being caused by a temporary cavity reaching beyond the ribs elongation elasticity, plainly braking them. The resulting effect was drastic: prey grounded!
> Oh, yes, I can well believe this. The .243 is quite overpowered for roe in my opinion. If the ribs separated from the spine, very likely you **did** have a "shock wave" or hydraulic expansion that did it. The bullet undoubtedly caused displacement of the musculature along the spine, and broke the ribs off. I've seen this happen in whitetails.
Well, it was a Leberknotenschuß. A hit on the soft solid incompressible Tissue, not on the soft compressible Lungs. I call this a typical 3rd Speed case, V > Vc 2nd relative large Cavity, small Body Sub speed case
> > I had alike results from my 5,6 x 50 Magnum (like a bigger .223 Rem) on roe deer with full metal jacket bullets with a Leberkotenschuß (explained below) without broken ribbs.
> The full metal jacket bullet, all other things being equal, will set up a temporary cavity similar to a softnose bullet of the same shape, at least at first. BUT, as the softnose bullet expands, or as any bullet tumbles, the size of the temporary cavity increases. Assuming the FMJ bullet doesn't tumble in passing through the animal, its cavity will be smaller.
I agree, because the cavity size depends (besides
other influences) largely on contacting bulletsurface and speed. After
90° tumble the tumbling bullet presents, compared to traverse in flight
axis, a multiples surface to the medium, therby generating larger forces
to push the medium aside.
A Leberknotenschuß differs not great, when You but the Chest (compressible lung) hit incompressible Flesh, wether upon entrance the Bullet hits a Rib or not. The Ribs are not that big or hard. The Jam pressure, that builds upon impact on the high speed varmint bullet (~ 900 - 1.000 m/s) Frontbow is large enough to defragment it. The resulting Doughter bullet crush surface is some 10 times larger than the original unfragmented bullet, thereby yielding enourmous Destruction capabilities in shallow Penetration, with mostly fully absorrbed Energy, yielding an extremely large Cavity. If Body flesh and Organs are beyond the Ribs outside the body displaced, the Ribs just brake.
> I shot a deer this year in which this happened. I found three broken ribs on the off side, snapped off right near the spine. But the bullet clearly had not exited.
Yes. I repeat. If body flesh and organs are displaced beyond the ribs outside the body, the ribs brake.
> I believe it was diverted by striking some other bone, glanced along the ribs, and then was deflected back into the viscera.
I do not know which kind of bullet You shot. But probably a bullet not as big as three ribs in a deer (10 cm or so?). When the hydraulic force induced flesh diplacement overstresses the ribs, they brake. The brake may have absorbed the bullets last left energy, so that not enough energy was left do disrupt and penetrate the skin. Skin is rather elastic and hard to tare apart (that´s one of it´s purposes).
3rd Resistance case: Hard and maybe
even thick bones. Hard solid.
> The faster a Bullet moves and the less gyro stable it is, the likelier tumbles it on contact.
Maybe true for FMJ Military Spitzers, but ceertain Hunt bullets tell another Sory:
A flat Bow, driven through soft Tissue, drags more on the forward Side, than the rearward other Side, thereby stabilizes the Bow in 90° right angel to Flight axis. We say: Deforming mushrooming bullets, or sturdy Flat noses shoulder stabilize in soft Tissue, hence with equal Calibre and Weight penetrate better than Round noses or Military Spitzers.
Gyro stabilization allows in Air the gravity center behind the Air brake force center, but only in air. The stabilizing forces are not ample to stabilize the Bullet in flesh. The Brake forces on the Bullet are in 1 g/cm³ dense Flesh, Water or gelatine about some 800 times larger, than 1,2g / 1.000 cm³ dens Air.
As Air and Flesh differ 800 times in Density, the more or less good stabilization in Air is, if no other Stabilisation occurs there, in Flesh completely lost. Gyor stabilization, good enough for Air traffic, is way to small to hold the tightest Yaw in Flesh with the extreme Jam pressure forces tu tumble fast, see Military Wounds.
Some FMJ Bullets are pretty solidly constructed,
quite likely begin to tumble, but not to fragment at slower Speeds. A Non
bursting deforming bullet yields in flight direction less Crush surface,
than a Non deforming FMJ bullet rectangular to Flight direction, so the
tumbling FMJ bullets Cavity would be smaller,
Well I had some longer After thoughts for Roe with Chest just below the spine hit, so there no hydraulic Forces were applied to the spine, to bang the Spinal nerve Cord.
I instantly grounded a Sow hit in the neck just above the Spine above the Chest. The "Krellschuß" knocked on the spine, to bang the Spinal nerve Cord. These Shots can be funny, as they damage no vital Organs. When You get Your prey not fast enough, it may run away before You are at it.
So Krellschuß can at some times be tricky.<
Well in some cases the Oxygen reserves supply the shot Roedeer to run 100 m. First I too was first surprised. But actually above 5,8g Sako and 6,5g Norma 6 mm Bullets are for a chest shot to defragment from that little Resistance far too tough. When a Bullet keeps unfragmented together, the punched Hole is actually quite small. Only about 1 cm from the actually bullet pass will the punctuated Lung be damaged. The entrance side Lung wing is very little destroyed. When the FMJ Bullet then tumbles the Destruction increases, but only to about 3 cm, with another 1 cm damage around. Much bigger, but still somewhat survivable, i think. The extrance is then 3 cm wide. Well a 3 cm Hole stops the Lungs to breathe. In the too hard Bullets in too soft lungs Case that´s the lethal FMJ Effect. Any animal with a Lung shot will at least live another 15 second .
Yes. You have to hit the heart to make it really fast; or the large vessels (aorta, pulmonary artery) to make the hemorrhage effect great enough for a quick kill.
Well, I had a roe deer with a Leg shot aftersought with a dog. The dog "Bracki" tared it down. I teared the Bracki with one hand back and shot the Roe with a 6 " .357 Mag 10,2 g softpoint in the chamber: The animal heartshot, as i later found, still lived some 15 seconds.
I wish I could use a dog.
Yeah, it´s great hunting!
Many of the details can be read with numbers and graphs in Duncan McPhersons book "Bullet Penetration".
Shotshell pellets on Nerves, A new Kill mechanism!
A Österreich hunter tells: "Every winter I shoot many Roe with shot shells (#1 up to 30 m distance, only from the side). When I skin the Game, the Pellets fall to the Ground down. Very often no Pellet penetrated than just under the skin further. The Roe usually fall immediately dead. Now some one may tell me, “What kills those roe deer?”
Most likely he shot a Pellet into the Central nervous system, probably Head or Neck, and killed it that Way. When I with small shot shoot squirrels, this almost always happens. Tell him to skin the Head and check the Brain and I bet he'll find a Pellet in there, or in the Neck. Superficial wounds of the skin are not lethal, and the animal most certainly dies not from "Sensory overload."
Meanwhile, Shock as we see it is hydrostatic.
This can stretch small varmints literally into pink clouds. Here on crows, prairie dogs rock chucks, etc. is a killer. It has little affect on large game. It can put them down, but not keep them there, unless enough blood is lost. The large temporary wound channel will soon contract leaving only the permanent damage to determine the time of death. You have to drain their blood on body shots of large game. We have never been proponents of bullets that produce small wound channels. Now then, the 107 6mm is an exceptional match bullet that slices the air like a razor. It has a 3% antimony core. You will need a minimum of one turn in 8.5 inches to insure stability at 243 Winchester velocities.
As for our companies admonition about hunting with Matchkings: A few years back, I received several calls about an individual, that was an incredible elk hunter. It seems he was dropping them on the spot with one shot every time. Finally the mystery man called me. He was using our 120 gr. Match in his 264 Win. Mag. I told him he was lucky. He said he had been lucky for 20 years. His secret was being an exceptional shooter, who knew where to place the bullet.
He used one gun and one bullet and had mastered it. It served him well. When someone is determined to use a match bullet for game and ask me what I think, I quite often say they are better than throwing rocks, a lot better. Actually, I do recommend match bullets often. However, that is when someone is shooting game beyond 600 yards. Match bullets taking their tumble are more likely to slide away from their vector.
LM> Weißt du etwas von einem "Nervenschock"?
Die Informationen, die Du mir geschickt hast sind sehr interessant und ziemlich vollständig, wenn ich das richtig sehe. Wo hast Du sie her?
Als "Nervenschock" kann man allenfalls das ansehen, was Du als "Krellschuß" bezeichnest, der meiner Meinung nach durchaus tödlich sein könnte, wenn durch die Erschütterung Nervengewebe lahmgelegt wird, das die Atemmuskulatur steuert (Halswirbelsäule) und dessen "Ohnmacht" lange genug anhält, um den Tod durch Sauerstoffmangel eintreten zu lassen.
Einen Tod durch "Nervenschock" bei periphererem Treffer halte ich auch bei Verwendung von Hochgeschwindigkeitsgeschoßen und auch beim Menschen für ausgeschlossen.
Shot placement is the key to hunt sucessfully!
Von: Robson [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] Gesendet: Montag, 16. Juni 2003 00:09 An: Betreff: No shockdeath
Hi Mr. Moeller.
First of all, let me congratulate you for much of the ballistics material in your website. I am liking it a lot. But in fact I am writing you because there's something I just read in your "No_Shockdeath" page that I hardly can accept and, for this reason, I would like, if possible, to know more about: the claiming from pathologist Lauren that "One friend, being 50 times hit with a .50" caliber Machine gun, survived."
I know a case of a military training accident where a very healthy19 years old guy received a very short distance (2 meters) short burst (of 5 shots) from a FN FAL (light automatic rifle, 7,62x51 NATO caliber) in his abdominal area (no hit in his vertebral column) and fully recovered from the wounds. But I just can't imagine someone receiving FIFTY (!) .50 BMG shots and surviving, it's simply against my comprehension; the summed woundings extension would, normally, be too excessive for ANY living being (maybe with the exception of some whales.)
Please understand that I am not saying that Dr. Lauren is lying, just that I would like to know how exactly were the shooting conditions. Maybe all shots in legs or all shots in an arm?
Well, before finishing, let me introduce myself: I am a Brasilian Federal Criminal Expert (a high rank police officer with forensic science formation working for the brasilian Federal Justice) based on Rio de Janeiro, with technical formation in Clinical Pathology, B.Sc. in Applied Math and Computer Science, M.Sc. in Production Engineering, and currently under Doctoral studies in Information Systems.
With very best regards and sincerely,
Robson da Silva email@example.com
Hi again Mr. Möller.
Thank you very much for your so prompt and kind reply. Even more kind considering your extremely busy status.
I also like Brasil a lot. ☺ I lived in Europe (more precisely in Dublin, Ireland) for almost one year (1999-2000). All few Germans I met there were quite nice people. In fact I had a German flatmate for a few months. Also, the city I live in, Petropolis (I commute to Rio city on a daily basis), was colonized by Germans and has a great German influence (the first Brasilian beer, many districts with German names like Bingen, Darmstadt, Wöerstadt, etc; and many German families like Köeller, Kappäun, Kniebel, Kronenberger, Hoffman, etc.)
Ich studiert Deutsch zwei yahr, aber ich spricht nicht, ich fergessen. - Please forgive my mistakes, this is one of around a dozen sentences I could dare try to write in German. I studied when I was 13-14 (I am 30 now) and never used in listening or writing after that; but I can read some easy material (like young children books) and some technical materials in one or two fields I am knowledged.
But ok so, I will get back to you after mid July, once you allowed me to do so.
Regarding ballistics, I must say, I am not a very good shooter, but as a professional Criminal Expert and police officer, and a person of Science & Technology, I am a true interested in the field - in the veridical (scientific) aspects of it. Sadly, I see that I am among the not many who can't stand with the perpetual dominance of anedoctal, mythical, ignorant, biased and even lying aspects, in opposition to the rareness of enlightened reasoning about it, like from IWBA, Mr. Fackler, Duncan MacPherson, HTL (? - , and yourself.
Well, I hope you don't start hating me, but I must honestly say that I, for ethical and philosophical reasons, don't like hunting - in fact I am vegetarian - but, I can accept and even understand (not agree with) people who do. I have some fellows who do hunt and I don't quarrel with'em (although I, whenever possible, try to convince them to stop hunting - I already succeded once.)
With reiterated very best regards from Brasilian lands, Robson da Silva
Dear Mr. da Silva,
you should read the English edited Books from Prof. Dr. Karl G. Sellier and Dr. Beat P. Kneubuehl about Wound ballistic. The fist taught in Bonn, Germany. He died some Years ago. The latter is well and active in Thun, Switzerland and can be reached by http://www.kneubuehl.com/~beat/. You find his titles there. Both are highly respected Scientist in their field.
If you have Questions I also will try to answer, if I can.
Sincerely, Lutz Möller